Ep 3: Visual Thinking for Dungeon Masters
In this episode, visual designer Jason Naumann walks us through two important elements of working with clients professionally and planning a successful D&D session:
Understanding the needs, wants, and interests of each player character
Allowing yourself time to ideate and explore, particularly visually, as you prepare a session
As usual, we’ve created a free download that came from this discussion.
In some ways, it’s a direct descendant of Keith’s Fishbone character sheets, but with more information good to keep in mind as you create maps and encounters.
We’d recommend you have your players fill these out for you, then reference them during planning and running your games.
Episode Transcript:
Sara: (00:01)
Hi, this is Sara Shepherd,
Keith: (00:03)
And this is Keith Hazen Diehmn.
Sara: (00:04)
And this is Dungeons and Documentation,
Keith: (00:07)
A podcast in which we explore the intersection of information architecture and the world's greatest role playing game Dungeons and Dragons.
Sara: (00:14)
In part one, we'll be asking our guest to walk us through a system that they used in their work or life to organize information. And in part two, we'll be applying that system to Dungeons and Dragons.
Keith: (00:26)
Our guest this week is Jason Naumann, who not only loves visual design. He hates being called a visual designer. He also loves Dungeons and Dragons. We're gonna be talking to him about how he approaches, uh, building a campaign as well as how he approaches his clients in the workplace.
Sara: (00:41)
I can't wait.
(00:41)
//Musical Break//
Sara: (00:50)
Hey everybody. Thanks for joining us today. Our guest is my friend, Jason Naumann. He's a visual communicator. He applies his understanding of user experience to illustration environmental design, product and packaging, design, branding, and identity and marketing. Welcome to the show, Jason.
Keith: (01:07)
Yeah, Welcome.
Jason: (01:08)
Hi, uh, I'm a big fan of the podcast so far. I've enjoyed the whole episode I listened to.
Sara: (01:14)
Oh, thank You.
Keith: (01:14)
Yeah, thanks.
Sara: (01:15)
So Jason, can you tell us a little bit about your work and how you approach it?
Jason: (01:19)
So I'm a very visual person and anytime I approach a project or, you know, whether it's doing a logo design or a document adjustments and, and layout and things like that, if it's not organized for me visually, like if it's chaotic or ugly or it doesn't make any sense, just looking at it, it's hard for me to engage with it.
Sara: (01:39)
And has that been the way for you since forever? Like even in elementary school you noticed if a, you know, teacher hands you, how a handout and looks ugly. You're like, I'm not gonna even do it teacher.
Jason: (01:50)
Looking back at my, at notes and things and reviewing all through my education and even now looking at meeting notes and things like that. Um, uh, there's a certain amount of visual memory that I kind of kick into when I look at those things that reminds me of kind of where my head space was at and what I was doing. Not necessarily that I'm like joting down, you know, illustrations that are relevant to what's going on, but just kind of engaging those parts of my brain, capturing my intensity and, and what parts of the conversation are more engaging to me is kind of a way that I will emphasize that mm-hmm
Sara: (02:26)
Well, maybe we could take a step back because I'm interested in this, um, your process when you're working with a client and you've established sort of the visual story they want to tell, but they don't have any visuals yet. Maybe you can walk us through how you go to find inspiration visually and then decide what goes, where, and are you making multiple versions to show the client? So when you're given a new job, like, Hey, we want you to make a logo. We're a mechanical engineering company and we focus on sustainability, go for it. What would be your process?
Jason: (02:58)
Yeah, so I think, uh, the first thing I'm gonna do is kind of navigate through that space, that commercial space a little bit, try and get an idea of what the top names in the industry look like. Really try and tease out what people expect to see, and also what my own biases are going to be specifically an engineering thing like that. Probably there's gonna be mechanical elements, maybe wrenches, maybe big moving, heavy pieces of machinery. Uh, and you don't wanna be too predictable with design cuz it's not gonna stand out. So it's important to go through the process of figuring those things out from there. That's also gonna, I'm gonna pull in elements of color and typography and different style expectations that are already there. And that's all kind of a process that I go through of getting my mind in the right place, getting an understanding of what the expectations are, the environment that this object or this logo, uh, this brand is going to exist in. And then from there it's important, I think to talk to the client and really know what their expectations are to tease out how much of that information they're coming to the table with. Uh, usually clients are gonna fall into one of two are, are somewhere on a spectrum generally of either being absolutely certain of what they want and not knowing how to express it or not really having any idea what they want, but being very enthusiastic about expressing it.
Keith: (04:25)
right. Yeah. If they had both of those things, then they wouldn't have to hire you. Right. exactly. Yeah. Yep. Wow. Yep. So you have to figure out which one of those things you're looking at. Do you ever have a client that's just like, yeah, I don't know. We just need a logo and, and they don't really care. Yep.
Jason: (04:41)
Yep. Yep. And uh, those clients can be very easy to work with Uhhuh uh, it's the challenge with that kind of a client is getting them to understand the, the financial value. Sure. That I bring. Right. Uh, they're not really usually willing to pay very much money for a logo if it doesn't mean anything to them. Mm-hmm
Keith: (04:59)
Sure
Jason: (04:59)
But that's where like kind of putting together some of those, a mood board or a look book, or what, what have you, uh, that kind of shows them how complicated the process is or rather how much thought I'm putting into it, how much thought should be put into it? Mm-hmm am I opinion at least can really help to kind of show that value add.
Keith: (05:20)
So is there one of those types of clients? So like we're talking about three, three sort of buckets of clients there. Is there one of those that is sort of the most satisfying for you to work with?
Jason: (05:30)
I like working with people and companies who can clearly express what they want and then kind of teasing that out because it's easier. It's, it's easier.
Keith: (05:41)
Uhhuh. Yeah.
Jason: (05:42)
But I would say the more I say, I would say the more rewarding ones are where, um, they have a lot of ideas and things that they like to express, but they don't actually know what they're looking for. Cuz that allows me to kind of creatively really get into that environment, bring different, bring in different elements. Typically I really don't do a lot of iterations for clients. I really like to, to put myself into a situation where, or, or a state of mind that I feel like is accurate and then I just trust my instincts as much as possible. Mm-hmm
Sara: (06:13)
yeah. And when you go to create something and decide that you're gonna do the unexpected and you bring it to a client, are you met with resistance because you've created something that doesn't look like the competition and how do you navigate that resistance?
Jason: (06:29)
Um, confidence
Jason: (06:34)
Um, I think if I find myself in a situation where the generally speaking, if a client is resistant to what I'm bringing them, I need to do more work in figuring out what their expectations were. Usually I peg them somewhere on that spectrum incorrectly. So then we go back to more conversations and I try to have them bring me things, make their own sort of a, a lookbook mm-hmm tell me what they're thinking. And then it's much easier to dial in what their expectations are. And I think in terms of the way that I do DMing and, and building counters and build campaigns and things like that, I will try and build environments that are going to be engaged with by characters, but then also environments and encounters and situations that are gonna be engaged with by players. You really have to kind of tailor what's going on to be something engaging for all of those people.
Sara: (07:25)
Yeah. And are you taking the players' desires? Like you would a client and creating a map based on like, well, I have a character who really loves jumping off cliff, so I'm gonna work a cliff in here. Is that part of it for you?
Jason: (07:38)
Yeah. Oh, oh yeah, for sure. Um, I just did, I just did a, a, a session that was in the ethere and I know it's been a struggle for me in this campaign to really have engaging combat encounters for this one character. Who's a monk. And so that allowed me to really kind of step outside of my 2d comfort zone a little bit and do some more engaging situations to be able to, to really leverage, uh, the, the multi strike and different punching and jumping and kicking and flying and doing all of these things, um, to engage the theater of the mind in ways that I don't often do, because I am so dependent on kind of that visual way of organizing a space. I guess I, I, should I have a confession I need to make, uh, I am primarily a, uh, online DND player.
Sara: (08:39)
All right. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. I feel, I find that to be more challenging actually to DM online. Mm-hmm
Jason: (08:44)
I think so as well, purely circumstantial, I kind of came into, uh, some groups that were willing to have me soca 2019 and then things happened the way things happened. But
Sara: (08:55)
I would say having played in one of your games online, I was struck by the visual experience, like the, the kind of creative world you made through maps and through intentional odd, you know, enemies and NPCs, I felt very much like compared to when I prepare, which the maps kind of come third or fourth, even when I'm thinking about preparing a game, I feel like for you, there was the map and then we were allowed to just kind of explore it and be in this place. Is that a result of you being a designer and you're thinking visually anyway, or because you grew up rather you entered DMing digitally
Jason: (09:34)
I think, yeah, I think it's both. Um, I think, uh, being, you know, my gaming space is my also my working space and I work a lot in the visual arena. And so, um, when I'm engaging with the computer and planning encounter and things like that, if I'm at my computer, I'm gonna tend towards using illustrative programs and things like that. Mm-hmm cause that's where I'm comfort. That's where I have confidence. But also my method does involve a lot of, you know, kind of scanning through making, you know, what we'll call a look book for, um, mood
Sara: (10:08)
Board
Jason: (10:10)
it has been called mood board before, which really doesn't capture what it is because, I mean, when you think of mood, it's usually happy, sad, angsty, uh, things like that. And, um, generally speaking, like engaged is what you want to consistently go for mm-hmm players, right. Players. But I will really kind of enter into an building an adventure, whether it's a larger campaign or like a one shot by navigating through some familiar map resources, whether looking through things online and kind of start there. And then I will go in and try and enter that space a little bit and then kind of adapt, you know, usually those things have to be adapted because helpful as, as it may be in some situations to have just a random table over here in the corner, you're gonna have I'm you're gonna have players. They're gonna say, oh, I wanna check out this table. Yeah. Hmm. That telescope looks awfully interesting and nobody wants to have to be in the middle of a game and say, oh, that telescope, uh, shows you nothing.
Sara: (11:11)
Right. Right. Interesting. So you start from the visual exploration and then go into the story element. Is that what I'm hearing? Like if you see a map that's interesting to you and it has a telescope, you would either edit that out or you would be inspired by the map you're looking at to work that into your story.
Jason: (11:30)
Yeah. I think it's sometimes with the objects. I definitely like, I need to be in this space and I, for me, I think because I started on the computer and I started doing a lot of my gaming online, keeping people engaged when you're expected to be staring at a screen, as well as listening. It's just a very important part for me. And it it's a natural fit.
Sara: (11:52)
Yeah. And what have you found has been some things that you do to keep that engagement?
Jason: (11:57)
I think trying to, I, I spend a lot of my time adapting those maps. I mean, starting with the kind of a found resource, you really have to do a lot of adapting and taking out things and adding in other things, additionally, uh, and then usually the story will kind of develop from there. But I, I like to, or I try to have a general storyline, that's gonna move from one place to another place. And then some elements, you know, that are gonna incorporate that, but trying to make the environments as engaging as possible. Because for me, I think the most enjoyable part as a player and as a, as a dungeon master is to really engage the players and to get them, you know, exploring the space, doing fun things, being interested, interacting with things rather than just sort of following, okay, here's a table.
Jason: (12:47)
All right. I found this, I found the key. Now I gotta take this key, unlock this chest. And I think there is an element too, of having come up using role 20 a lot and the challenging, uh, aspects of their battle mechanics that I don't put as as many encounters into, uh, my game design, as you know, I would otherwise, if it was felt a little bit more streamlined, it affects pacing a little bit too much. And I think it's really hard when, when working online to keep everyone consistently engaged, especially if you don't have, you know, the, the all seeing eye, the camera on the computer turned on and doing a video component when it's just off video, you know, you get folding laundry and, and what have you going on in the background. So I think trying to keep people engaged, our players engaged as much as possible. I tend to rely on the visual.
Sara: (13:42)
Yeah. I can, I'm remembering a map. It was like a air temple map and we were exploring it. And then on the side of the map, there were these, I think there were logs kind of that you could jump from one log to another. And I never knew if you intended us to eventually get down there and have this jump from one log to another challenge. But for me, you were like, sure, you can do that. And it's like 200 feet down and you'll probably die. And like, go ahead. And it became this really engaging story of like, just looking at the map and seeing people make their roles and try to, to not fall. I don't think anybody died. Right?
Keith: (14:15)
No, I don't think so.
Jason: (14:17)
It definitely was intended to be kind of moved in there. I, I remember that specific, uh, that specific encounter and, uh, one of the players that we were playing with just kind of swept through it in like three dice roles. So that was an important lesson for me. Probably amazing. Um, but to, to make sure you're like balancing difficulty levels with your players.
Keith: (14:39)
I mean, I, I'm thinking about these three sort of categories of clients that you were talking about, and I'm trying to think of players that are analogous.
Sara: (14:46)
Yeah. There's definitely players who are like, I just wanna kill everything. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't care about your story and they're the worst kind of players to play and they already know what they want. It's like, well then how about you DM Jimmy?
Keith: (14:57)
Right. But then if you just kill, give them a lot of things to kill, then eventually it just gets boring. It's true.
Sara: (15:02)
Yeah. Or this's just the players who are very enthusiastic and they're new to Dungeons and dragons. They're like, I don't know what I want, but I'm here. Yeah. And then you have to guide them like, well, here is a Tavern map and there are chairs and I'm helping you along visually. And then the experience players who are like, well, I know what I want, but I'm open to your ideas.
Keith: (15:20)
Right. And then you have the players that are sort of reluctantly playing D and D for the very first time. And they don't really know what they want
Sara: (15:26)
And you don't know what they want either.
Keith: (15:27)
Yeah. They're not even sure that they wanna be there, you know, but you sort of have to draw them in, you know,
Sara: (15:33)
yeah. That's interesting. Cuz as a DM, you are, it's sort of like that initial design discussion of like, okay, you are here at the table, literally playing D and D mm-hmm . Um, can we talk about what you're interested in, but I think you do that through an NPC of like, oh, Hey, Lastie what brings you out on this quest? I don't know.
Keith: (15:53)
Yeah. So, I mean, I think this conversation sort of works on several levels in terms of, you know, mechanically, right? Like building a campaign that works for your player characters. So like you were talking about creating encounters in the Ethereum that work for a monk or, you know, I can think of like countless times where I've been playing a pre-built campaign and you come up to a, an obstacle that is meant to be, if, if you've got a droid with moon beam, then you can get past it. But if you don't have a Dred with moon beam, then you know, you have to just figure out another
Sara: (16:27)
Way, spend one D four days digging through the cave
Keith: (16:30)
Wall yeah, exactly, exactly. And then, and then there's a, you know, just engaging the players themselves and figuring out how to actually keep them interested in the game, figuring out what they want from the game.
Sara: (16:43)
Yeah. And I think like for Jason's work, he's working with individuals who have individual needs, he's building something for an organization. So he is looking at the, the market for that organization. And then how those elements that he's designing are gonna work in the world.
Keith: (17:00)
Mm-hmm
Jason: (17:00)
. Yeah. And I think, I think marrying those things with also, you know, my own level of interest, because as a designer, I also wanna be making something that's somewhat interesting, something that I'm proud of. Mm-hmm and that's enjoyable to get, continue to work with because, you know, rarely do I just build a logo for someone. Usually I'm doing branding for them and I'd like to be doing marketing for them and all of these things where I want to incorporate what I've built here into a larger vision. I think that also is related, you know, that's a similar way I look at building a campaign because as a DM, I want to be a player I'm gonna be engag in this space. I have to make it engaging for you and pull you through the space and through the storyline or walk with you. Let's not say pull
Sara: (17:46)
.
Keith: (17:47)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was thinking the same thing. I mean, and I think ultimately, you know, the campaigns that I've been a part of as a player that have been the most successful are the campaigns that the DM is really excited about doing, because the DM is sort of creating that space for you to live in as a player. And so if they're excited, then it's exciting. And if they're not, if they're just like, sort of just reading out of a book and they're not really engaging it or whatever, then it's just not as fun.
Sara: (18:14)
Yeah. And I'm curious about the confidence level. So when you show up for a design review with your clients and you're like, well, I think a lot of it is just confidence. Like I'm proud in what I've created. I think it's gonna work for you. Do you have that same feeling when you're like, okay, let's start the session and I'm DMing because I don't have that.
Jason: (18:31)
Um, no, I wouldn't say that. Um, I am usually pretty anxious about it going into it. Um, I'm confident in, in what I've done visually and that's where I think it gives me a higher level of confidence to be able to run things if I can, you know, present my time investment and uh, my, you know, comfortability in this space strongly mm-hmm that makes me a lot more, more comfortable with, you know, kind of rolling with punches and going with the flow and, and, you know, letting players pick up wherever they want to and, you know, move through the space and navigate the space.
Keith: (19:12)
Mm-hmm .
Sara: (19:12)
Yeah. And I imagine when, you know, you're going to a stakeholder meeting and you're like, wow, Shirley really hates yellow, so I'm gonna sell it in this way. Like I'm gonna, you know, you kind of are prepared for those difficult clients and savvy players.
Jason: (19:25)
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that there's a, there's an element of preparedness for how you're gonna manipulate the conversation a little bit. That is similar in D and D and dungeon, mastering as it is in dealing, talking to clients. I shouldn't say dealing with
Keith: (19:41)
Mm-hmm
Sara: (19:41)
working with
Jason: (19:42)
It clients. Yes. It should be a collaborative process we're working together. Although sometimes, you know, either one of those situations can feel a little bit more like pushing uphill.
Sara: (19:53)
Yeah. Well, it's funny because you say you present one look book, which to me is crazy, cuz I'm like, here's seven. I don't know what you want. And I feel like that speaks to my lack of confidence, but as a DM, you're like, yeah, you could do whatever you want in this world, but secretly you're gonna do what I already have planned in my Google doc. And I'm gonna get you there because I've made you engaged in my world through this visual map. So manipulation is the key.
Jason: (20:17)
I think it also speaks to, you know, my own level of interest in a project. If, if I'm really engaged with ideas, if I'm engaged with the company and I might end up exploring a lot of different options, but a lot of times, if you're looking to make a logo for a company or a branding identity or uh, whatever it happens to be there usually is a right and a wrong starting point. Sure. Even if you can have a lot of ending points that are very different, that all work.
Sara: (20:47)
When you look at the logo and it's, what's expected and it's boring, you don't wanna make that kind of thing. So what about with D and D and maybe we could talk a little bit about your vampire idea because I know we didn't finish it and I'm sorry, but it was very unexpected. So do you feel like you're the kind of person who doesn't want to give people what they already think is gonna be the thing?
Jason: (21:10)
I think that, that goes back to my sort of coming at, uh, in everything with a blank page coming at a vampire encounter, specifically as an example, there's a set of expectations that people are gonna have with a vampire encounter. You're definitely gonna expect that you're gonna have to kill a vampire. And you're probably going to anticipate some of the predictable tropes of how to kill that vampire. And if those things don't work well, that's gonna be frustrating more than anything else. So you have to have those understandings. You have to know what the strengths of your characters are going into that situation. But, uh, at the same time, I mean, you wanna, you wanna satisfy those expectations. You, you can make it fun and you can make it interesting in different ways in the case of, you know, that vampire campaign. I, I kind of, there's a young vampire, who's not really a vampire, but you don't know he is a vampire and kind of, it was set up to be figured out down the road. Um, I brought in a lot of other elements. I did a fair amount of quote unquote research, uh, reviewing the, the literature and the most popular Dracula films and things like that to really tie in some of those things for the, the vampire super fans for a
Keith: (22:24)
Second. I thought you were gonna say Twilight
Jason: (22:26)
, I, I cannot say, uh, out loud that I've ever watched Twilight.
Sara: (22:32)
Okay. So how much time are you spending in this creative brainstorming for your, I mean, it sounds like you're kind of allowing yourself days to kind of wander and you know, you're not sitting down an hour before the campaign and being like, all right, what's something I expected. Um, he's a vampire rabbit
Jason: (22:54)
For campaign design. I definitely, you know, I give myself a full week to really like figure out where I want to go with it. And part of that is with an em emphasis on the visuals and the maps and things like that. I have to do editing. I mean, I have to go in and I have to take out things that I know are going to be interesting that I don't want to have to, you know, incorporate somehow into my storyline or, or have a, a clever equipped to say why it's not relevant. So it's definitely a commitment. Uh, but it's enjoyable for me. I mean, it's different from doing client work or doing professional work because I'm really, you know, it's art making. I enjoy the work, I enjoy illustrating and adapting things. And when I have a lot of the work done for me, it's easier.
Jason: (23:47)
So that's nice. But I would say in contrast, when I work with doing logo design and things like that, that can be a slow process because, uh, I have to get to know that space and then that client, and if I can't really get the, all of those pieces in place in a timely manner, then I spend a lot of time with a blank page doodling, things that are sort of, oh, this could work or that could work and that could work. And they might be half of them viable ideas, but they're not in a state to present to a client with that confidence. And so do I put the time in to really finish them and make them, you know, close to finished products so that they see I have a competence and that, you know, I'm kind of going somewhere or is this a kind of a client that I can trust and say, here's some rough sketches. Tell me what you think.
Keith: (24:46)
Hey, everybody. That was our conversation with Jason Nowman. Thank you, Jason. Be sure to check out our website@dungeonsanddocumentationdotcomordungeondocs.com for handouts, blog posts, and more conversation about this episode, as well as our previous episodes, we had a brief hiatus as our free time was in decline, but we are back and releasing episodes every other Monday. So please be sure to keep an eye on your podcast feed and hit that subscribe button
Sara: (25:19)
Dungeons and documentation is a production of Keith and Sarah's free time. Our theme song was created by Ian post. Our executive producer is Oslo cobble pot underwriting provided by shepherd creative enterprises, LLC. Our show is recorded and produced in the Crip of the smiling li
Keith: (25:40)
This episode is brought to you by sitting inside all summer long. Why would you go outside? It's way too hot out there. This episode is brought to you in part by scheduling conflicts. Hey, you wanna play D and D
Sara: (25:52)
Tomorrow? No, I can't. Oh, bummer. This episode of dungeon and documentation is brought to you by social skills. How long do I have to wait before I ask a new person? If they play D and D
Keith: (26:03)
Oh, that's a tough one.
Sara: (26:05)
First time. First interaction after hello?
Keith: (26:08)
Oh, no. I'm like a two year guy.
Sara: (26:10)
Oh my.